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Why???

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Posts: 51
(@john-r)
Trusted Member
Joined: 12 years ago

as ever trying to do the "least wrong" thing with so many balancing / conflicting priorities when trying to organise events. Ref further above no I wasn't hinting, I was saying that you may well be able to find a workaround or solution to this conundrum when and if involved in some event, which would genuinely be great. At least the modest inconvenience of not being able to forward book indefinitely mitigated by the email alerts that pop up before each event which I must admit do help as a reminder to me. Thanks all for the discussion, always great to see incremental process improvement (and valid challenge) as we try to "fail better" with organising events which are quite the handful for what is usually a small team of volunteers (the very limited experience of which I have on that front).

Have a good weekend all, sorry to be missing this year's Rogaine, that's some day out !

Best regards, John


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(@gradient)
Joined: 13 years ago

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Posts: 299

@john-r 

"I was saying that you may well be able to find a workaround or solution to this conundrum when and if involved in some event"

Huh?

Well I've been orienteering since 1978, and have organised, planned and helped out at many events, including the recent Leinster Champs. in Vale of Clara, which I planned, and based on that level of involvement and experience, I'm asking the question 'Why we are restricting the entry window to such a short interval directly before the event?' I'm further suggesting that most events should be capable of being opened for entries when they are made visible to general users on the fixtures list. Note that events are on the list in a number of different statuses before being made available for general users to see.

Paul


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Posts: 425
(@johnmccullough)
Honorable Member
Joined: 13 years ago

Events tend to go on the fixtures list a long time before any of the event arrangements are made: in my experience they usually don't have a planner, controller or organiser, or any precise details about where the start, finish, parking etc are, let alone what the course lengths are or what the entry fees will be, or the start times and closing time.

Usually, once these details are pinned down, the event goes live for entries.
 
For League events, say, we know the courses (except for the question of whether there will be a Short Green or not) but we don't know the course lengths, which in some cases determine which course someone will do, particularly if people are undecided between Brown, Blue and Green, say. (This won't affect the serious League competitors as much as the more casual or occasional ones).
 
These are the reasons I see why entries don't go live earlier, not an answer to the question why these can't be pinned down more in advance.
 
The related question is when to close online entries and what to do about entry on the day. Printing extra maps is no problem and is not as wasteful as having hundred of obsolete maps stored somewhere - as in the pre-OCAD/digital printing age where you had to print several thousand maps to make the print run viable.
 
Online entries are a benefit mainly to the event organisers (to populate the results software and to estimate the final numbers at the event), unless the entry fee is cheaper than the entry on the day rate, when the competitors also benefit. Currently, entering in advance doesn't guarantee you a map if the number of EOD's is high and/or the organisers underestimated the number of maps to print. An extra map, on waterproof paper, will cost about 70 c to €1, which is well covered by the entry fees, particularly if the EOD fee is higher.
 
You will have seen that NIOA events charge a significantly higher entry fee than we do (and don't usually provide the tea and biscuits etc that we do) so I think we are undercharging. We also should have a reduced rate for club members (all clubs, not just the organisers) than for non-members, to encourage people to join clubs.
 
In 3ROC's case we usually close entry for a Sunday event at about midnight on the Thursday, and print the maps on Friday with some extras for EOD. I don't think there are any printers open on Saturday (Reads used to be, but not any more, I think).
 
We need to have enough maps to guarantee that everyone gets a new one and certainly that all the pre-entered people are sure to get one. 
 
John McC

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(@gradient)
Joined: 13 years ago

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Posts: 299

@johnmccullough

If a club doesn't know such basic details as where an event will be then such events should not be visible on the fixtures list. As you and I both know there are multiple statuses that control this so the facility is there for clubs to book a slot without making the event visible to ordinary users. I'm not talking about such events in any case.

If an event is that vague it shouldn't actually be visible to general users. I'm only talking about opening entries to events for which the most essential basic information is available, i.e., date, location and courses.

Closing dates are not an issue for me. Entry on the day is the organisers prerogative and I'm not pushing for anything on that score. As I've said, if I turn up and no entry is available then I'm Ok with that. I fully appreciate the issues around printing of maps and I'm not asking for any changes in how that's being handled.

On the subject of entry fees which isn't really germaine to what I've been asking, I feel that Orienteering is ridiculously cheap, and superb value for money.

Paul


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Posts: 299
Topic starter
(@gradient)
Reputable Member
Joined: 13 years ago

Hi Gav,

If a club doesn't know such basic details as where an event will be then such events should not be visible on the fixtures list. As you and I both know there are multiple statuses that control this so the facility is there for clubs to book a slot without making the event visible to ordinary users. I'm not talking about such events in any case.

For example there is a CATI/Urban event scheduled by Setanta on Jul. 1st in Shanganagh park. Almost without exeception such events have a L/M/S course and many regular orienteers will be more than aware what will be involved in such courses, and would be more than able, if they wished to enter right now. I understand that certain details may not be available until much closer to the date, but those for whom that is an issue can always wait until closer to the day to enter.

Non-league events almost invariably are either L/M/S, or Score, or Scatter. I would argue that most regular orienteers tend to run the same courses all the time and therefore are more than capable of entering well ahead of time if they so wish. The remaining type of event, League events, are suppose to be planned to a standard, and again most regular orienteers will tend to run the same courses each time and could enter well ahead of time if they wish.

My personal viewpoint is that an event should not become visible on the fixtures list until it is really to accept entries and that it should be open to accept entries when it is made visible. This can be done without necessarily having final course details. All that is required is to know what range of courses will be offered and the entry fees, both of which are pretty standard.

I have difficulty wrapping my head around the idea that Clubs seem to think restricting entries to five days running up to the event itself (even if by default) is somehow preferable to what I'm suggesting.

Showing if and when an event will be open for entries in the list itself would be a big help.

Anyway for the moment I'll take my chance and just turn up. If an entry is not then available then so be it - I'll go for a run instead.


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Posts: 118
(@stuart)
Estimable Member
Joined: 13 years ago

This is a great thread. I genuinely like seeing the placeholder fixtures on the calendar as I can plan my days around them (unfortunately not as often now as it used to be, but those days will come again!). Even if details aren't firmed up, it's good enough to know that there's likely to be a league event in say, North Wicklow, and I'll try to plan my calendar accordingly.

I wouldn't necessarily see the need to enter events early. Surely that would just lead to people thinking they'd registered months ago and then finding out they'd forgotten? Surely we could just get used to looking every Monday morning, for example, and entering the next event then?

Of course, once we make sure there's entry on the day for all events then everyone will be happy 🙂


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(@gradient)
Joined: 13 years ago

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Posts: 299

@stuart

I wouldn't necessarily see the need to enter events early.

I'm not talking about trying to force people to enter earlier, just about giving them the option.

Saying that things should stay the same because you're personally happy with it, isn't really an argument either!


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Posts: 299
Topic starter
(@gradient)
Reputable Member
Joined: 13 years ago

Big thank you to Fingal who have opened their next three events for entry already. 👍 


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